Bitcoin Ordinals & Open Call Winner Announcement
Charlie Big GM, man. Big GM to everyone. We're back, baby. We haven't done the space in a while, so welcome to the Builders Podcast once again, and we have a great topic today. But before we start, man, big shout out to Flavio. Flavio here in the building. What's going on, Flavio? How's everything with the Builders DAO? Let's get it.
Speaker 1 Hi, Charlie. GM GM to you. GM to everyone, to the speaker, and to whoever is listening. Yes. It's been a couple of weeks. We have missed our space. Everyone is on holiday. You know? So but, yeah, we are back, and this this this week is gonna be really fun. Great guest and great topic. So looking forward to this space.
Charlie Man, let's get into it, man. Look. I have been away. The energy has been renewed, ready to go with this amazing topic as well. We got some amazing guests, so they're gonna be taking it to school. So we're gonna be learning about Bitcoin ordinals. And, also, we're gonna be at the end of the space, we're gonna be mentioning the winner of the open call. This actual gallery or or event that is happening please, Flavio, tell us what's going on with this event, man, before we actually get into the topic.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Basically, there is a collaboration with Art Crush, and we managed to get a slot where we are gonna project the art of around 25 artists in the streets of Ghent in Belgium during the Ghentsee festival, which is I believe there is gonna be 1,600,000 people during the two weeks of the festival, so it's gonna be really crazy. And, yeah, basically, most of the DAO artists got a spot to showcase their art, but we wanted to give the opportunity as well to an external artist to join the exhibition, and it's all for free. So they will exhibit the art there in Gens in Belgium. It's gonna be really great. And, yeah, basically, we're gonna announce today the winner. So there is an one external artist that will join the DAO artist in this exhibition, which will be at the end of July, so the last weekend of July in Belgium. It's
Charlie coming pretty soon, man. So I'm super excited for that gallery, for that event. 1,600,000 is not is not about a it's not a walk in the park, man. It's going to be a huge event. So I'm, like, super excited for just to see the artists that are going to be showcased on that, plus the external artist that is outside the DAO as well. So huge congrats in, gonna be mentioning your name in a couple of minutes before the hour. So with that said, man, let's get into it, man. The Bitcoin Ordinal, man, we got some amazing guests that are going to be taking us to school once again. We got Ben Meadows. You already know. If you guys don't know him, definitely hit him up with a follow. He has vast knowledge of, I'm gonna say, myself. You know I'm saying? Personal experience.
This dude got knowledge of everything. You know what I'm saying? He knows everything, but when it comes down to base, e, inscriptions, BTS a. He's the man. So, hey, hit him up. We got Carol Levy in the building as well from gamma.io and Cybersea as well. I mean, we're gonna get those introductions popping. Ben, please start us up, man. Give us a quick introduction, and welcome once again to the space.
Ben morning. Good morning. It is actually morning where I'm at. I know it's afternoon where most of y'all are at, but it's 7AM in the morning out here in Phoenix. So I'm Ben Meadows. I've been working with blockchain technology in one way or another for over a decade. I have a background in technology, construction, art, so a few different things. And as I always like to say, just in the last few years, I've been able to dovetail some of those interests, technology, art, together, due to advances with the blockchains in general. You know, back when I started, You could send some transactions back and forth, and that was about it. You know, Ethereum was a nice idea that was selling for pennies and dollars, you know, back when I started. And so I've enjoyed seeing the rise of DeFi, and then now NFTs and art.
And we can talk about smart contracts, and we can talk about, ordinals and how those are different from NFTs and pros and cons. And it's just been really fun to see how things have evolved and to be involved in numerous styles and art projects, from an advisory capacity, as an artist, as a collector, as a curator. So happy to be here today. Happy to be, chatting with, some of the members of the BuildersDAU. Great group. And I'm happy that I'll have one of my pieces exhibited in, Belgium with them coming up here. So, happy to be here and happy to dive into this topic.
Charlie Man, hundreds in the chat, man. Hundreds in the chat. Appreciate you, Ben, for being here. You're always an inspiration when it comes down to all the technology, expertise that you provide to the entire group. When it comes down to ideas, ex exploring new new new avenues, new blockchains. I mean, you are the one to go. You're the one you're the one guy. Good morning to you. 7AM. So I appreciate appreciate you for waking up early, super early for us. So I'm looking forward to to this space with you. With that said, man, let's keep it moving, man. We got Carol Levy in the building. Big GM to you. How's everything going with you? And give us a quick introduction about yourself.
Carol Good morning. Afternoon here in France. So I'm Carol. I've been with Gamma for two years, a bit more. I'm obsolete at Gamma. I'm also a fine artist on the side. I do dot work. And Gamma is originally a Stacks marketplace, Stacks being a bitcoin layer two. And since the rise of Ordinals, we support Ordinals. We've become an Ordinals marketplace, still support Stacks. We're an artist first platform. We have a bunch of cool features and a partner partner artist program. Just a bunch of cool stuff that I can talk about a bit later, I guess.
Charlie 100%, man. Super excited to have you here, Carol. There's a lot of things, many questions, man. We got so many questions to ask when it comes down to Gamma, BTC, Ordinals, you name it. So I'm glad that you're here as well to to answer those questions. With that said, last but not least, CyberC in the building. Give us a quick introduction about yourself, and how is everything going, GM to you?
Speaker 6 GM, GM. I hope you hear me well. Yeah. I'm a generative artist. I released a collection this year on Ordinance. Previously, I was releasing on Ethereum and also on FXL Flash. I'm also a curator, on, vivid gallery. What else I can add? I have a technical background. I'm normally a software software architect. Yeah. I guess that will be my introduction for now.
Charlie Epic, man. I appreciate you for your introductions, I received, man. I just hate hate you without follow. Super excited to actually hear your expertise on this topic as well. Let's get into it, man. It's already ten past the hour. So I I don't know about you guys, Chad, but, I'm actually trying to get some learning going over here when it comes down to BTC ordinals, gamma, and everything else in between. So with that said, let me ask Ben a question real quick, when it comes down to BTC ordinals. For you, what is a BTC ordinal?
Ben Oh, man. Start off right off the bat with the good one. So let's start with defining what an ordinal is, you know, so that we don't get them conflated or confused with NFTs because I think most of the people listening are probably more familiar with what an NFT is. So I would say they're similar, but they're different. So basic concept. Right? What is an ordinal? So you gotta start out with Bitcoin, and how do you break Bitcoin down smaller than a Bitcoin? You know, we use, what's called a Satoshi. Right? It's the smallest sort of thing that you can break a Bitcoin down into. So each of these Satoshis can be given a unique serial number. Right? We think of Bitcoin as a fungible token, right, not a nonfungible token. And to quickly, you know, dive into that just to give people a refresher, a a fungible token is something that can be exchanged like cash.
You know? $1 bill is $1 bill. We don't think about them being unique or different. Even though technically they are in the real world, any given dollar bill could be changed out for any other dollar bill or barrels of oil or anything else. Fun nonfungible tokens are are unique things. Right? A piece of art, you know, something that has its own unique attributes. So what ordinal theory does is it gives each Satoshi a unique serial number or ordinal number. It comes from ordinal theory. If you really wanna go nuts, go to ordinals.com, and you can read all about it. So that's that's sort of the, you know, very basic. So we can distinguish these Satoshis one from another by numbering them. Then we can inscribe data onto these ordinals so that they can carry additional information much like an NFT.
And so this is where, most of us are thinking when we say ordinals, we're actually probably thinking about the inscriptions on the ordinals, the JPEGs, the art. You don't mint ordinals technically. You're inscribing them. You're attaching metadata such as images or text to the specific Satoshi. This was made possible because of an upgrade in the Bitcoin protocol, the Taproot upgrade, and then we can get a little deeper into it. But that's the very short way of thinking about it is it's almost somebody's you know, an analogy someone's used is it's like putting art on a dollar bill, like like writing on a on a dollar bill. And so that's a little bit how we can think about ordinals. We can get a little more in-depth, but that's the short version.
Charlie Man, Ben, I have no idea that that's how it was. I this whole time that I was actually in Web three, I was thinking that the Ordinal is basically, like, basically an NFT, but it's it's not the same at all. Like, it's a whole different ballgame when it comes down to to the world of BTC. Let me ask you because you were talking about Satoshis or Sats, and that's something that I noticed when I was actually navigating to Gama. Can you actually get these Satoshis yourself as far as, like, you can you can actually, like, purchase through an exchange? Or how is this actually when it comes down to acquiring sats, for example, like collecting and things like that of that nature, like, how what is the process on this?
Ben So to give the short overview answer, so one Satoshi, right, is point zero zero zero zero. It's one hundred millionth of a Bitcoin. And, yes, if you have Bitcoin in your wallet, you have Satoshis in your wallet. Now when you're when you're buying inscriptions on ordinals, you're you're buying Satoshis, specific Satoshis with this metadata on them. You can also go by special Satoshis. So if we were just gonna kinda define Satoshis, right, there's there's ones that don't have anything on them in your wallet. There's ones that have, ordinal inscriptions written on them, right, which we think of as ordinals or inscriptions on ordinals. And then there are there's a category of Satoshis that I would call special Satoshis. So, you know, and there's and there's all different rarity of Satoshis. There's you could inscribe your art on. I've done it in the past on a pizza Satoshi.
Right? And so that was one of the SATs that was used in the famous Bitcoin pizza transaction. Because there were so many Bitcoin used in that transaction, there's lots of Satoshis, and you could actually inscribe your art on a pizza set, or there's numerous other kinds. That's a that's a whole whole side conversation we could have. But, yes, you could go out if I said, I want to go get a 100 pizza sets. You could either do that through, some of the marketplaces that that ask you when you're inscribing, you know, if you would like to do it on a special set, or you could go out and just hunt those sets down yourself. You know, node operators and and, in Bitcoin will actually try and, you know, collect those as they process transactions and segregate them out. But, yes, that's a whole different story.
You can actually collect special Satoshis.
Charlie Man, there's a lot. I mean, we gotta do, like, a part two, part three of this because this is, you know, in a one hour span, name the way. There's a lot to learn when it comes down to ordinals and sats and different special types of sats. I remember the whole pizza thing, man. I'm pretty sure he is mad, that he was able to sell those for a pizza, but that's another conversation apart. Carol Levy, man, look. I wanna ask you something real quick. When it comes down to, n f I don't wanna say NFTs because it's not really an NFT as actually Ben explained. When it comes down to the cost of inscribing, not minting, inscribing on BTC, what are the transaction costs for a collector to buy, if you know when it comes down to Gamma, for example?
Carol So that will actually depend on quite a few things. It all depends on the size of the file, the sat v bytes, which is the the, like, the gas fee in in Bitcoin at the current time. So you would go to the mempool and check what current fees are. And then, like so, basically, if your file isn't compressed enough and sat for, like, 75, it's going to cost a lot of money to inscribe something. On the contrary, if your file is really well compressed and you manage to either, I don't know, make it, like, less than a 100 kilobytes or leveraged recursive inscriptions, which I now realize I'm going very deep into the rabbit hole, but I'll I'll get there in a sec. So, like, if you made it very light, basically, and Bitcoin fees are not on the rise, then it could be very reasonable.
But, basically, the the short answer to that is it depends, and it can be anywhere from a few dollars to hundreds of dollars. So there are ways for creators to make it more cost efficient on their side with for example, if they inscribe the work themselves to then sell it as an auction, for example, or as an addition, so multiples of one, then they would have to put the money forward and then hope that they're gonna make it back, basically. So in that case, they definitely like, artists need to have some amount of knowledge as to how to compress a file, and they need to be checking the mempool really often to make sure Or that they're inscribing at the right time. Like, if you can see that, you know, two hours from now, fees are gonna be down, then you might want to just wait a little bit and be patient.
Another way they can do it is just doing a regular collection mint, which works the same way a collection mint works on other blockchains like ETH, where they would upload their assets, for example, to Gamma. They wouldn't pay for anything. They wouldn't actually inscribe them yet. And then as buyers click mint, which as Ben said, isn't it's not minting, it's inscribing, but it's basically the same thing. As they would click buy, then the buyer would inscribe the file. And then that cost of file weights plus mempool fees would be on the buyer. So again, the buyer might wait and check the mempool and be like, oh, fees are super expensive today. Maybe I'll mint in, like, a few hours. And then another way for artists to leverage that and, like, save a bit for of money for them and for their buyers is recursive inscriptions.
So recursive is basically, you would have a parent inscription and through code that they don't do. Like, you don't need to know how to code for this. Tools like Gamma do it for you, basically. You would say that you want to reference the original inscription to create multiples of that inscription. So you would first inscribe your photograph, for example, and then so you still have to pay for the inscription fee for that. And then you will say that it's a recursive mint. Everyone will get the same image as they inscribe and mint your collection. But because it's recursive, it's basically just a line of codes. It's not actually a file. And so buyers would pay a lot less than if it's a 100 kilobyte kilobyte file. So you've got a bunch of collections on Gamma if, you know, a visual can help with that.
Like, top of mind in the top of in the top collections, you've got, like, prophecy. You have in the in the top bar in Gamma, you also have the Gamma Summa Pass, which is also a recursive inscription. So they're all identical, and they all reference the original one. Yeah. I'm sorry. That was a very long answer.
Charlie I I'm done with No. That that's the answer we like right there because there's a lot of information that needs to be actually given away. So and you did. As a matter of fact, for what I learned from everything that you mentioned, the the main points were make sure that when you are converting your file, it has to be a 100 kilobytes or less. That is going to be a lot more cost effective. If you can you can lower it more than that, hey. You're more than welcome. It's going to be a lot less expensive if you actually go above that 100 kilobyte and above. So that was one thing that I learned from the from it as well. And of also the men pool. You were mentioning something about the men pool when it comes down to, hey.
Make sure that you know exactly when to mint, or inscribe that may so it's going to be a lot more cost effective for the collector. So those are, like, the, the many things that you mentioned that, of course, space is recorded for those that want to learn a lot more about it. That's exactly what I learned, in a nutshell. And, of course, there's a lot more things that you mentioned as well, Carol. I know you you actually opened your mic. I don't know if you wanna mention something else.
Carol Oh, yeah. Sorry. I I was just gonna add, like so you can go higher than a 100 kilobytes. Like, on Gamma, you can inscribe up to 360 kilobytes. That's because block space is is limited on on Bitcoin. So, like, it's not impossible, you know, if you get a good fee rate and you have a bigger file, you you can definitely inscribe it. It's just up to the artist and how much they're willing to spend as a ratio to the quality that they're willing to forego, basically.
Charlie That's that's good to know when it comes down to, like, a limit. Like, that's actually a good thing because, for example, like myself, I know now, like, if I wanna go to Gamma, now I know for sure that I have to be within that range of 360 and below, just because of the black space that you mentioned. So but let me ask you one more thing. But before that, let me let me give the space to Flavio and got his hands up real quick.
Speaker 1 No. Please go on, Charlie. Ask your question because I have another question just after yours.
Charlie Bet. Look, Carol, when it comes down to Gamma, when it comes down to the collectors there, it have you seen that there's, like, a certain amount of time or time of day where they actually be like, well, this is the best time to actually
Carol on time zones first. Like, we have a bunch of users in The US but also in Asia. So you can definitely tell when, like, China and Japan are getting up, basically. But it also really it's more related to when artists drop. So we have seen, like, scenarios where there is a huge collection dropping, and then people are up. Whatever time of day it is, wherever they are, they're there because it's limited supply and they want one. And so they'll be there to mint and regardless of fees, basically.
Charlie That's us. That's what's up. I'm actually looking forward to that because it comes from both ends, from both the artist and the collector. Like, one thing is the actual artist, like, knowing when to mint or inscribe, for, of course, cost effectiveness. And then, of course, the collector on on their end when it comes down to, like, hey. When is the time for me to collect the printing on as as Ben said, correct me if I'm wrong, SAT fees. It's not gas fees. It's a it's a different name, which is the same same with Manpool and Guei. It's, like, similar it's very similar, but it's not the same when it comes down to what they're trying to do in Gamma and BTC originals, etcetera. So, Flavio, please go ahead.
Speaker 1 No. I think that Carol just say the magic word, you know, compression and file compression. I know Ben is is an expert about that. So I wanted to ask real quick to Ben and Cybersea as well. From a technical point of view, is there, like, a specific tool or method that you can use to compress files for ordinals? Is the tool the same like you would compress a file for if you want to describe something, for example, on it full on chain, or is there any difference?
Ben So I would say in some ways so Ordinals is both ahead and behind of NFTs depending on what you're talking about doing with them. And I'll let Cyber talk in just a minute because I think he'll have some interesting views on, you know, generative art on ordinals. But when we're just talking about relatively simple art, right, we're not talking about at the moment, let's let's you know, we're not talking about recruitment. We're not talking about interactivity. We're not talking about when it comes to an artist that just wants to put their image on chain. You know, Carol's right in the sense that you you do gotta watch the mempool. You do wanna watch your file size. However, ordinals are a bit more forgiving than fully on chain NFTs, both in the sense of file size. Right?
The largest piece I've ever put on chain on Ethereum, I think, is 80 or 90 kilobytes, which is huge for fully on chain. And I posted, underneath this space, the largest piece I've ever put on. Ordinals was something like 333 kilobytes. So, what, four times larger than the largest piece, and it was cheaper to do so. And I would say that's one of the things that when you're looking at size per kilobyte with relatively low mempool or gas fees, ordinals are a little cheaper per kilobyte. So as an artist that wants to put something fully on chain, ordinals is generally a little more cost effective. That could change. Mempool could go crazy versus gas. When it comes to tooling, so Gamma and often, you know, a lot of the ordinals tools out there for helping you get your inscriptions or your images onto an inscription, a lot of them have some automatic kind of compression that will go into effect if you take a relatively standard image file, PNG, WebP.
I don't know if they handle ABIF, yet, although Ordinals can, JPEG. It will automatically compress those. It'll often ask you, do you wanna automatically compress this? But as an artist, you can do that on your own too. Vector images are great, or just using, you know, standard compression tools, same as you would if you're trying to do a fully on chain piece on Ethereum, would work. Now, like I said, there you can get way further down the rabbit hole than that with recursion, all sorts of fun tricks and things you can use, just like there's fun tricks and extensions on Ethereum, but that's the basics of it. Like I said, it looks like Cyber dropped off as a speaker, but he's got some really great insights into interactivity and generative art on Ordinals that would be interesting to hear about.
Speaker 6 Yeah. So so I think the main thing here in ordinals is that everything we put in ordinals have to be on chain. So if it's image or generative collection, it is fully on chain. And this is the thing that we need to understand. On the interim, it's not so obvious because you can have also some IPFS or anything else. It can be just a URL to something. But here, it need to be fully on chain. And because of that, in my opinion about this, it's perfect for generative art. Generative art is art type that is created from created from code. So you need to code the application, which is actually generating the art. What that means? That means that, when you run this application, then it's in real time using your browser generating the image. So you only put the code of the application, which is quiet light on chain.
And the rest, the image, the actual image can be scaled indefinitely, of course, if you wrote your application that is generating art in the right way. So, basically, with generative art, you can have, yeah, scalable art on ordinance, fully on chain. What is also really important, we have this parent child that or a cushion that Caroline mentioned. And it's also really great for generative art because when you put code as a parent, then it's probably larger, like, I don't know, dozens of kilobytes. But all the other pieces, which is, course, difference, is just a really small file that is sending some randomization seeds to the parent, take the whole code from the parent and run it. So for example, in the case of a correction that I inscribed in February, that was ex machina, it was like the old pieces besides the parents cost, like, inscribing, I don't know, $2 or something like this.
So it was crazy cheap because it was just really, really simple HTML file that was targeting the main parent. And, what I think is also really important to this whole parent child is not only think, about, saving on gases Because, as I said before, is all about putting the our art on chain so it can be there forever. And if we put our art on chain but without parent child, then it's just separate inscription. And if we have a parent, then it create collection on chain. Without it, we don't know if this, I don't know, 100 pieces are connected in any way. It's not on chain, but this parent is creating collection. Some artist, which is also really important, goes even further and, create the artist seal, which is parent of all the collection they create.
So there is on chain mark that shows that, for example, this piece was created by this artist, and, yeah, it's saved, on Bitcoin forever.
Charlie So I was just, like, listening to what you were saying when it and this is something very important that you said. Like, it doesn't matter about the gas or or whatever the sat fees are. It's just the fact that matter that you're putting your art on Bitcoin. And and that's huge because, I mean, we all know Bitcoin is the freaking OG of the coin. So if you don't have your work on actual Bitcoin, it's like, what are you doing? Like, you need to actually have one of those in there as well. And it's fully on chain, which is a huge difference compared to what we know from many years ago when it comes down to IPFS, Arweave, etcetera. It's not the same. So it is very important that that we actually, as artists, we actually keep that into consideration when it comes down to getting into the world of inscriptions and ordinals.
It's not the same. And I'm actually glad the fact that you mentioned that you're a generative artist. So that gives you, like, some sort of an advantage because you know the code and you know exactly and and let me ask you this, though, because I was I was listening to you talking about code and everything else. If there's also when you are actually generating the art, are you also keeping in mind the actual size of, basically, the kilobytes that you are gonna be actually putting that art and to actually pull it put it on fully on chain? Or or how do you do that?
Speaker 6 Yeah. As I said, the thing that I'm putting on chain is my code, and code by definition is just a text file. So it's not not quite match. It's like it will be really, really light comparing, for example, to some PNG or anything like this. So in fact, when you think about generative art, it's not a problem. Of course, you can use some libraries, like, for example, p five JS or free JS or anything else. But thanks to this parent type, you can just use the library that is inscribed by someone else. So if it's already on a Bitcoin, you can just use it and it's free. So you only need to inscribe your own code, which is generating art, and this is actually really, really cheap.
Charlie Man, there's a lot hey, Flavio. We gotta run it back, and we gotta do a part two because there's a lot of topics in here within in it. Like, we can talk about gamma some more. We can talk about generative art, the code in in it as well. And talking about inscriptions, Ben, Flavio actually posted a really, a really great piece of art from from Ben. And it's 333 kilobytes, which is still makes it in that in that range of 360, kilobyte limit as well. So there's a lot of things to talk. There's a lot of, when it comes down to, the tools to use to to do the, the compressions and things like that. There's a lot of there's a lot to talk, man. This is a whole different level. This is a whole different world when it comes down to descriptions, minting, etcetera.
BTC, man, if you're an artist and you're listening to this podcast, this conversation, definitely get active and start asking the questions when it comes down to compression files and everything else. If you're generative artist and you haven't dived in yet onto BTC, definitely hit up and follow to CyberC. It's a no brainer, and you get to learn a little bit more of how everything is done when it comes down to BTC ordinals and and what we are talking right now. CyberC, please go ahead.
Speaker 6 Yeah. I just wanted to add to that, for example, this, really, really cool piece from Ben is 333 kilobytes. And, thanks to and this parent child that I mentioned, I inscribed all my collections. So 400 pieces in less than 100 kilobytes, 400 pieces. So this is how powerful can be, creating the code, which is quite light as I said, and just making the links.
Charlie Man, look, Ben, let me ask you this real quick, man, because I look at the image, and it reminds me of a place that I have been. I just wanna confirm. Is this is the capital in Madison, or is it just some something else somewhere else?
Ben Holy crap, man. I'm surprised you got that. Yeah. That is the that is the capital that is the capital building in Madison, Wisconsin. I took that photo, I wanna say maybe in 2020. And so this is, you know, what Cyber is saying is true. So I did this. If you go to that link, you can actually see the date that I inscribed it. It was two hundred and seventy three days ago, 10/18/2023. You know, you can see how many sats I paid to create it, a 168,000 at the time. So we probably had a pretty low, mempool Back then. And, you know, for me, this was more about pushing the limits of inscriptions at the time. Recursion was a little bit new right about then. I think I had just been doing some work with compressing vector files using Recursion and some JavaScript libraries.
But what Cybers said is a 100% true. If you you can go look at I posted it in the comments here. I did an interactive vector compressed, image. So it's, you know, it's a vector image, so it's endlessly scalable. You can click on it. It changes colors. You can double click on it. It switches to Bitcoin orange, which is if you notice, this, this photo of Madison, Wisconsin, it's both been, used to dithering algorithm. But then the two colors are actually the sort of two official Bitcoin colors, the Bitcoin orange and the Bitcoin gray. So this was more of a proof of concept. I've never sold this particular thing. It was more just to show what I could do. But, Cyber's correct. When I did some of that, interactive recursion with vector files, you know, the whole decompressing of the compressed vector image, was done in 22 lines of code.
Even the interactivity and everything, it's probably under a 100 lines of code. You're talking for the recursive additions, one, two, maybe three kilobytes, and that's with interactivity, decompression, all sorts of fun things versus, you know, this single image that's several 100 times that in size. So there is a lot of nuance there and a lot of fun that can be had with with this relatively new way of doing things on Bitcoin.
Charlie Man, you guys are having too much fun with this because I was wondering down myself with the color. I'm like, why did he pick, like, orange? Like, what's going on? And now that you actually told me that it's because of the colors of Bitcoin, I'm like, oh, this is clever. Clever. Clever. Clever. I like that. It makes sense. It makes sense. So at 333, like, everything is just on point. Hey. I was that was just a wild guess when I was looking out at the capital. I'm like, that looks familiar, but let me just add just to just to confirm. But moving along, man, with the segue, great conversation. There's a lot of things that I'm learning personally. I'm pretty sure the audience is learning a lot, especially the artists down there that are like, damn. Like, did I jump in on this from the beginning?
Like, I'm on I'm stuck on ETH, Solana, Tesla. Like, there's a lot more out there. There's freaking Bitcoin. You know what saying? So you need to get into it, man. The space is recorded. So if things are going over your head, hey. I recommend you, like myself, to go back at it and start actually learning from Cybersea, Ben, and Carol when it comes down to BTC, Gamma, and everything else. Talking about Gamma, I definitely wanna ask Carol, when it comes down to what are the basically, the biggest challenges when it comes down to scribing, minting, an ordinal on BTC or in Gamma, and what is the biggest benefit of it as well?
Carol Yeah. I think the like, we've kind of covered the biggest challenge, which is getting your file to a place you're happy with. Like, I'm also an artist. Right? And I have some pieces that I don't think I will ever inscribe because whenever I get them small enough, I'm just not happy with the quality anymore. So I don't want to do that to myself or to my pieces. So I think that's probably the biggest challenge. And then the biggest benefit, you know, like, we're not Maxis, but we're Bitcoiners. Right? And it's Bitcoin. It's the mother chain. It's the safest, most secure, most tested, most trusted blockchain out there. And I guess, you know, our motto at Gamma and on the homepage is secure your legacy forever. So that's what you get. Like, it all outlive you, which I think is probably the biggest benefit. Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's not like referencing the file that's stored on IPFS. It it's just there. So, yeah, I think that's probably
Charlie Legacy legacy is the word for sure. For sure. So so let me ask you this, Carol. Have you been involved with other than BTC, for example, like Gamma and everything else that you've been inscribing your work? Have you been involved with, like, Ethereum, Solana, any other chains? Let me ask you that first before I ask my other question.
Carol So I have, but in a very limited capacity, I've sold one or two pieces on ETH, one base, and then I had quite a few stacks, an eight or two for Bitcoin before we started working with Ordinals. But yeah. No. I like, I haven't tried Solana or that many other chains, but yeah. A few.
Charlie Yeah. Because this is actually, like, a two part question because I wanted to actually ask you about the community aspect of it as well. When it comes down to Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure the community is totally different from other communities that you have experienced before. And that's something that I wanted to ask you first if you have some sort of knowledge when it comes down to other communities that you have been. So let me ask you about the actual Bitcoin ordinal community. What are the things that an artist, let's say, that are brand spanking you into the community? What are the expectations, and what are the things that they probably kinda like an advice for you to actually let them know what's going on over there on that side of side of the pond, of the ocean, of of of blockchains?
Carol You know, I think in to some extent, same as other blockchains, like, you have to be present on Twitter. You need to market yourself, all of those. But and I can't speak to these communities because I I'm just not a part of them. But I do feel like on Bitcoin, there really is a community, especially within artists, I guess. Collectors as well, like, we we know who they are. We have a few collectors who are true art collectors, and we recognize them. The artist, there really is, like, a a sort of bond there where they really all support each other. We even, like so we have the Gamma Partner Program where you can apply to become a Gamma Partner Artist, basically, and then you get some exclusive perks that that you can enjoy. And with that, for example, we have partner ambassadors.
So those are four artists from the program who each have a specific, like, specialty and set of skills, like, compression, marketing, stuff like that. And so they can help. Like, they wanted to help other artists from the program to teach them and assist them and mentor. And so I feel like, yeah, it's a it's a community that works well together. There's a lot of collaboration. A lot of artists within the program have wanted to do things together. And and also, like, if you go to the Gamma profile, you'll see the pinned tweet. And so last month, we launched an open call for our partner artists to participate in a physical collectible, which is called the deck, which is a deck of cards that you can play or collect, exhibit, whatever. And 59 artists from the program selected a card and designed something exclusively for the deck of cards.
And so we're gonna have in Nashville next week for the Bitcoin conference, we're gonna have these very, very cool deck of cards with, like, artwork from, you know, 59 different artists. And, like, everyone is excited to be part of one project together, basically.
Charlie But sounds like that community is solid. I guess because is it is it really is it a small community, or is it really a big community with a lot of artists? Because that actually influences a lot. Because the the smaller the community, the tighter it is, the better it is, in my opinion, when it comes down to getting together, getting getting to events, for example, helping each other when it comes down to compressions, mints, etcetera, inscriptions. So so is it is it, like, a really small community, or is it, like in your opinion, is it, a bigger community of artists within the actual BTC Ordinal spectrum?
Carol I think, like, as a ratio, like, ratio to the Bitcoin ecosystem itself, the Ordinals ecosystem, the art the artist community is quite large compared to probably other ecosystems like ETH or Solana, maybe not as big, but I feel like maybe tighter. But again, like, this is just a guess because I don't really know. But so we started out with a quite small community of artists, like, maybe 60 ish, most of whom came from stacks, which was our original community. And now the partner program holds approximately 200 artists. But even though it's grown really fast, because this is less than a year, even though it's more than doubled in less than a year, we still have that very tight friendly vibe within our community. So, you know, we're we're working hard for it to stay that way so that even if we grow, we're just gonna have, like, that cool vibe forever is the goal.
Charlie So, basically, we're early. 200. Hey. We're early. So if you are an artist and you haven't been on Gamma a, I don't know what you're doing. This is the time right here. We're early getting to it. And something that is very important, Cybersea mentioned it. Carol mentioned it. It's all about the legacy. Like, where else do you want to mint your work but on Bitcoin? I mean, the mother of the OG of all coins. It makes no sense that you have been here for so many years, and they ask you, have you minted anything or inscript inscribed something on BTC? And you say no. They're gonna be looking at you like, what are you doing? So get in get on Gamma. Get familiar with what's going on, this whole conversation. It might be complex. It might seem to you very overwhelming. There's a lot of information going on.
Hey. Just take it one step at a time. You already know Ben is in the building. Carol's in the building. CyberC's in building. They're already gonna put you through through the right stuff. So you actually your your journey through towards BTC Ordinal is gonna be smooth. With that said, CyberC, man, I know that you're an artist generative artist for that. Have you been in other communities, blockchain communities that is, that and you can explain the differences between communities that I have you have experienced so far?
Speaker 6 I guess, you mean what is the difference between the communities on the ordinals and on other chains. Yeah?
Speaker 6 Yeah. So at least from my perspective, ordinance communities are a bit more mature. People are who comes to to ordinal, you need to understand that they come in the middle of really tough bear market, which was happening, on Ethereum. And they are just for a technology, for innovation. They just wanted to try something new. And, I guess, the one who already come early on Bitcoin goes there for not really to, you know, just flip some images to earn some money, But, because they were fascinated with this, cool technology of ordinals, and they wanted to inscribe their work, on Bitcoin, which is, as you said, the most important, chain that were created. So I guess, that means that, it's a bit different crowd than on, for example, on Solana or even it. So, yeah, I guess they are more mature.
There is more real art collector who have a longer time frame and to look at it as your art as an investigation, but, like, for ten, twenty, fifty years, not, for two days or two hours. So, yeah, that's basically my observation here.
Charlie But that sounds fresh as hell, bro. It's all fresh, man. Mature people, they're just for the art, for the innovation, for the technology. None of this flipping thing going on. Real aisle collectors. Like, hey. It sounds fresh, man. Hey. If I hey. Look. Audience. If I was you, I will definitely be checking this out immediately. It's a whole different pace. No drama. No toxicity. Like, it's gonna be like kumbaya. I don't know if I'm gonna be used to this personally because I need a balance. So but but what you explained, maturity, hey. It's up the most. So we got Julio in the building. Julio I've known Julio for so many year years. He's been going through many, many he's been traveling so many just besides traveling the Sahara Desert. This is why he does. I don't know why, but he does. You know what I'm saying?
Like, you're gonna ask me. I go to Hawaii or anywhere. He goes to the desert. But, anyway, besides that, he goes to different blockchains. He explores. He he actually puts his time into it as well. He actually joined Gatma and the BTC Ordinal work world as well. So I wanna just hear his input on this with as well when it comes down to what do you think about the community, and and what is your impression on Garma and BTC Original so far?
Speaker 0 Hey, Charlie. Ciao, Flavio. Thank you for having me. First of all, I haven't talked to you, Charlie, in a in a very long time. I saw this space is, European time, so I'm like, shit. I should, actually jump in. And I just, you know, honestly wanted to give my my feedback, you know, on my very first experiences. Well, first of all, I I'm still learning about Bitcoin because I'm, I mean, I'm coming from the desert. The blockchain itself is a completely alien world to me. It took me two years to learn tiny little bit about Ethereum, so I'm still learning about the others. And you know very well how hard for me is to change chain and to explore different, you know, like, ecosystems. You know? Just because I'm not mentally trained for this kind of technology. So it take me ages and overwhelming and so on.
With Gamma, I got approached, I think, end of two thousand twenty three by some of the guys who was bred, I think. And but I was going to an expedition in Libya, and so I couldn't do anything. I was already overwhelmed by the fact that they reach out. You know? I was like, oh my god. Who what is Gamma? What is Bitcoin? Mean, I was I I don't know. It was too much. But then, honestly, the people at Gamma and I'm not, you know, I'm not getting any money for this. The people at Gamma are amazing. Like, I love both the founder and all the people, you know, the the behind the technical aspects. I mean, the the support that I had, like, you know, to taken hand by hand, you know, like, through every step, every, you know, things that I had in mind, it was it was huge.
Like, I mean, you know, I'm a kid when it comes to these things, and I need to be guided. You know? And it was impressive, you know, and the communication. I mean, we we were we are far. Like, I think Brett is in in Australia, and so when I wake up, he go to sleep, you know, and and and the same with the with the other members. I think they're in US. So despite all these, you know, like, obstacles, like, it was it's been an amazing experience. And you might think it's extremely hard to, you know, get your wallet or set up your account, but it actually has been the easiest thing that I ever done in the world of blockchain. You know? It it's not comp it is not complicated at all. It's full of artists.
I think there are the beauty, I think, is that there are niche artists, like, maybe people that you never heard about. They are not big names. They're not, like, you know, crazy people that are loud, but they're actually extremely good. And I think they're definitely in for the art. The art you know, some people are for commercial purposes, to make big sales and so on. But the artist there, I feel like they're, you know, passionate about what what they're doing, and that's the the beauty of it. From my side, like, a community, I'm still trying to dive in. I feel like and I there is Steven here that hosts a lot of spaces. Unfortunately, a lot of what's what what happens in the BTC part ecosystem happens in hours that I'm not able to attend, you know, spaces especially. So for me, it's very hard.
I tried. But at 2AM, 1AM, I cannot keep my eyes open. So I hope there will be other, you know, spaces like this one, you know, to connect. But the people are I mean, the whole ecosystem is cool, and it's pretty fresh. Like, it's very I don't know. You don't feel any pressure, you know, any I don't know, any formal as they say. You know? So if you I mean, I have to also say that for for photography, it's tough. Like, if you wanna inscribe high high resolution, like, big photographs, you're gonna spend a lot of money. Like, you have to be realistic about it. But to and what I did is, like, for me, it's an investment. Like, this is these are photos that are gonna be there forever. You know? No bouncing to any link or any, you know, like, EAFPS, whatever the name is.
So you need to strategize. Of course, there are different way of compressing files and also different I think there are two ways to inscribe. One is high resolution, one is in low resolution. But you have I think you have to give it a a try, you know, like, because it's I mean, it's the main chain. And and if you don't like it, you know, you go back to your own things.
Charlie Man, I appreciate you for your input, man. And that's huge, man, especially for those that are into photography. Like, I was asking that myself. It was like and something that Carol said, like, I'm not gonna force myself to inscribe something if it doesn't look good once you actually compress. So you gotta make those decisions. But what what you mentioned when it comes down to how easy it is to get in and also the aspect of, the people are not there just to just make money. They're there for the art. They're there just to, you know what I'm saying, to vibe, which is cool. Because in my opinion, the way I see it is this. The reason why the artist act that way is because they know for a fact that Bitcoin is the OG. So being there as an artist is already a w.
It's not even about making the money flipping or anything like that that CyberC said. It's all about the legacy, something that Carol actually mentioned too. It's like, hey. As you said, Julio, I'm making an investment. Right? I'm actually putting my work in there because going to be there forever. No IPFS, no RW, none of that. So it's going to be there, fully on chain. That's a huge difference. So with that said, fully on chain. Let me ask Carol this because, you know, we're talking about Gamma too. Gamma is in marketplace. So let me just hypothetically ask you this. I'm not wishing you anything like that. But in the scenario that Gamma closes, they'd be like, unfortunately, we gotta shut down. What happens to those inscriptions? It's fully on chain, stays there. Correct? That's my assumption.
Carol Correct. They stay there forever. You don't need Gamma. You don't need Xperse. You don't need Leather Wallet. You don't need anything but your seed phrase. That's it.
Charlie That's freaking dopey right there. Like hey. Look. I'm not even gonna ask anything else because it's pretty self explanatory. Like, if you want your work to stay there and not worry about if the actual marketplace is going to be there or not, hey. Might as well jump into BTC Originals, man. I'm thinking myself doing that move. I I was very, like, on the actual fence about it because I didn't know much. I'm gonna keep it a 100. But now with everything that actually has been mentioned by Ben, Carol, and CyberC, it's like man, come on, man. Like, it just makes sense to me. But moving along, I don't know if, Flavio, you got other questions to ask, but I got one more, and then we have to move along with the other with the announcements as well. We got announcements for the for the upcoming event in Belgium. So, Flavio, yeah, do you have anything else to mention?
Speaker 1 No. Well, hi, Julio. Nice to see you, and I think we need a part two of this space, Charlie. And I already asked Ben. We need to mint a pineapple pizza for part two of the Bitcoin space. No. I was just joking. No. You go on, Charlie. Ask your question, and then we prepare for the announcement of the winner. I think it was really insight an insightful space. And, yeah, I am a photographer as well, and it's I know it's so tough to mean, like, high quality photographs on Bitcoin, but I think sooner or later, I will give it a go. I will try.
Charlie I mean, I'm gonna keep it a 100. Ben's work, that one that actually got posted on top, I'm like, that's pretty that's pretty tough. I like it. So like, if I can actually do something like that, I'm cool with it too. When it comes down to the, playing with the colors and everything else like that, hey. That's fresh, in my opinion. But, yeah, we definitely gotta do a part two, part three, part four, whatever until we actually were all on the same page. You already know Ben, Cybersyn, Carol Dan, the freaking next level, like, 9,000. We're, like, level one, two, three. So we're gonna get there eventually, when it comes down to learning about BTC ordinals and and the benefits. I think there are more pros than cons when it comes down to BTC. When it comes down to, like I will say the cons.
One of the cons is, like, our cost. It's gonna cost you this amount. But I remember three years ago when full, full bull market, people were spending $700 on on a mint. So I'm like, okay. So but it's ETH, though. It's not BTC. So what is the difference? So but, yeah, that's that's that's me, though. But let's get into it. Appreciate you, Ben. Appreciate you, Carol Carol and CyberC for this for your time and your expertise on this. Carol, one more question when it comes down to Gamma. I am a newbie. I got no clue what's going on. So what are the steps that you recommend for artists to join in Gamma, and what are the things that they need to actually keep in mind when they're once they're joining or they're trying to join?
Carol The first step would be to download a wallet that's compatible. So you have Xpress, Leather, phantom, and OKX, which are all all great user friendly options. And then you would connect your wallet to Gamma, and then you just follow the steps. And if there's anything at any point, I feel like Julia said it better than I ever would. The whole Gamma team is there to help, basically. So, you know, Brett, Eli Huff on on Twitter is also a very good place to start.
Charlie Sounds like a no brainer. Like, the way you are actually explaining it, like, is all you have to do is get a wallet, that's it. You're good to go. The team is gonna get you. It's gonna hold you by the hand. You're good. Like, you're not gonna be alone on this. So that's what's up. I mean, kinda like the same thing Julia mentioned, when he actually talked to us that, hey. It wasn't even that hard. Like, one probably one of the easiest thing he did. So I'm like, yo. That's e even giving more confidence towards the artist that is on the fence like myself to be like, dude, like, look. Why are you on the fence for? Like, it would make no sense. So get in get on it. Get involved. Get busy. Definitely, BTC Ord knows the way to go.
I don't know if the Builders DAO is gonna come up with something. I don't know, man. I'm I'm just here. I'm just here as a cohost, but I'm pretty sure they're cooking something when it comes down to BTC, ordinals into the actual DAO. It just makes sense to me.
Charlie know. But, Julio, what's up?
Speaker 0 Just real quick. You know, photography is a little bit different. So if anyone wants, has any question, you can DM me about, know, photography. It's a very specific thing because it's complex images, lots of pixels, you know, compressions and stuff like that. We I'm happy to to help anyone, so who needs help.
Charlie Hails to the air, man. This is insane, man. When it comes down to the amount of knowledge that you gotta have to get that done, hey. Hey. There's a whole lot of freaking research. So definitely hit up Julio for that. If you are a photographer like myself, Flavio, and many others, like, hit him up. Get your journey started over there, man. But, hey, let's get into it, man. Flavio, what we got, man? We got the open call. We got you know I'm saying? We were doing this for a while. We're we're actually letting people know about showcasing their work. You know, you weren't part of Didau. Didau was given the opportunity for those that were not to showcase their work and be part of this event in Ghent, Belgium. It's going to have 1,600,000 visitors, man. It's a festival, man. Get into it, man. Fabio, talk to us.
Speaker 1 Thanks, Charlie. I've just sent out the, from the DAO page, the announcement for the winner. If you can pin it to the to the space, please. So, yes, basically, as I said at the beginning of the space, there's gonna be this festival in Gent in Belgium. It's gonna start actually at the end of this week. So this Friday will last for two weeks. And thanks to our crush and Barco, we will be showcasing some very cool art on the streets of the city. So the art will be projected on the streets of Ghent during the festival. And, yeah, it's expected to be 1,600,000 people there. So a lot of people will see our art, and this is something that we do again for free for all the DAO artists. Plus, we wanted to give the opportunity to one external artist to, yeah, be selected and showcase their art together with with the DAO.
And so, basically, what happened is that we had an open call. You can see in the pinned post of the DAO. Then what we do what we did was to select some of our favorites entries, and then we put them in our Discord. And then all the DAO members had the power to vote. So, basically, we put the best entries in the Discord on one particular channel, and then all the DAO members voted either artist, DAO artist, or collectors. And then we selected the winner, which is the most voted entry, which I just shared with the in the post. So congratulation to Ewe that he's the winner. We also wanted to put the honorable mention, so second and third classified. Unfortunately, we had just one spot left for an external artist, but we wanted to say thank you to everyone who has who has participated to this open call.
I can see some of the artists here in the in the space today. So thank you, and congratulation to Ewe. I know she's in this space, so I will try to invite her to speak if she wants and if she can speak, of course.
Charlie Yeah. Huge congrats to Ewe underscore DrawMe. Incredible work. So I'm pretty sure the Dow the Dow folks were like, yeah. We want her and, to be part of it as well. And that's actually what is cool about the Dow. There's no, like, a you're giving the power to the members to make that decision. So it's actually even sweeter for for those that are not in the DAO to actually be selected to be part of this because it is the members who make that decision ultimately to to actually have her to be part of the actual gallery as well. So that's huge as well. So huge congrats. We send you the invite to come speak with us. And if you can and you don't want to, that's okay as well. Did you want to in, basically extend the invitation to you?
But other than that, man, we are actually coming to the close of the space. But before that, I definitely wanna hear some closing remarks from Ben, Carol, and Cybersea. And then after that, we off, and we're rocking it. Ben, please go ahead and give us some closing remarks.
Ben I think we should definitely do a part two. I think there's a lot to explore with Ordinal. Maybe ask the community what they wanna hear more about because we could probably have a part three and four, you know, if we didn't have some direction
Ben an hour. But I've really enjoyed our chat today. Really enjoyed hearing a little bit more about Gamma from Carol, Cyber, and his, extensive expertise in the generative art world, and especially go check out his, DSX Machina on Bitcoin. Really impressive. Actually responds to what's going on on the blockchain. What I would say for artists and collectors that wanna explore ordinals for collectors, it's easy. Go to gamma.io. Take a look at what's going on. You'll see all sorts of very interesting things. For creators, also, go check out Gamma or look at you know, I posted eight different comments underneath our space today that's full of information. Feel free to reach out to me. I'm sure lots of other people would say the same. If you have any questions, happy to share my knowledge. And, yeah, just dive in and and experiment. I mean, it's a new protocol.
Right? It's it's less than two years old. I was doing some of my first inscribing some of my first ordinals in a hotel room last February because I said this is gonna be cool. I wanna get some early early stuff in there and and mess around with this while it's new and and young, but we're still new, and we're still early. So experiment. Have fun. You know, the mempool is down around six today, which is very, very low. So it's not too expensive to just try some things out and, and get out there and learn. So, everybody have a great day.
Charlie My love to Ben. Hey. You haven't followed Ben. I don't know what you're doing, man. Hit him up with a follow-up, lots of knowledge, lots of hey. He knows I'm not even I'm not even making this up, man. He knows about a lot of things, man. We have space. Not long ago, we're talking about base. Man, Ben was just going with it. Like, he was going crazy with his base. And now talking to him with about BTC and ordinals, he's like, yeah. I know that too. So, I mean, Ben is the one, man. He is him. So definitely hit him up with the follow, man. It just makes sense to me. Carol, also wanna hear from you any closing remarks. Great to hear from you for the first time. Gamma is the one definitely for PTC Ordinals for artists, so definitely wanna hear some closing remarks from you as well.
Carol Yeah. Just thank you for having me. It was it was a really interesting chat, and I'm excited to see part two, three, and four. But yeah. Like, as I said at the very beginning, Gamma is an artist first platform that, like, just we put users first in general. So feel free to come explore, create a wallet, try to inscribe whether your own stuff or to mint something that you like from another artist, for example, Giulio. He has a lot of very cool photography on Gamma. And just, yeah, go to the secondary market, go to our prints feature that lets you recursive editions. So they're a bit cheaper in fees and in concept in general. So they might be a good place to start. And, yeah, just, you know, have fun. Like, that's the main point of anything in life. Just explore and have fun. And we're happy to have you, and we'll help wherever needed. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Charlie My love to Carol. There's a lot of things that we have to learn from Gama, but, from what I hear from the I mean, first impressions, I mean, Carol from the team, Hey. They killing it, man. So definitely, it's no brainer to explore and have fun as she mentioned towards the end as well. So last but not least, Cybersea, generative artist. He knows a whole lot of BTZ or no, man. So definitely hit him up with a follow as well. It's a no brainer. Cybersea, any closing remarks?
Speaker 6 Yeah. I'm really grateful that you invited me here. Grateful to Ben that he told me about this space and about BuildersDAU. Yeah. I think that for now, BTC and Hourdinance is just a no brainer. So if you are creating art or you are a collector, you should definitely go deep into it because, yeah, art season is coming to Hourdinance, and don't sleep on that.
Charlie And with that, CyberC, appreciate you as well. Appreciate Ben and Carol for being here, taking out of your time to actually explain to us a little bit, just a little bit of what is actually happening with BTC Ordinals, Gamma, and ReRest. We're definitely gonna be doing a part two, three, and four. I am pretty sure I'm not gonna say sure, but pretty confident that, the Builders Dog is gonna be cooking something with the, with BTC. I mean, it just I mean, that's what they do. That's what they do. We have been on different blockchains. BTC got to be the one of the destinations, not to say the last final destination, for the DAO. But with that said, Flavio, anything else to to add up? But with that, myself, Charlie, as a host, I appreciate you guys for being here. Definitely, we're not be we are back.
We're definitely gonna be doing more spaces very frequently with different topics as you know it. So, Flavio, anything else?
Speaker 1 No, Charlie. I just want to take the opportunity to say a big thank you to all the host. It's been very insightful space. I've learned a lot myself. Now I'm even more tempted to try and mean something here on Bitcoin. And you are not wrong, Charlie. We we really want to do something with the builders now on on BTC. So let's see. Hopefully, if we can, maybe before the end of this year, we can we can do something. Maybe start small, but definitely something that we we have to explore is yeah. Definitely, we have to we have to do something on Bitcoin. So, yeah, very excited. And please go on, and we rock the space, Charlie.
Charlie Yeah. We're rocking the space right now. But before we get into it, man, learn some more about BTC Ordnos. If you have no idea what's going on, please listen to the recording once again so you get to have at least something that you can actually grab into and get into this world of BTC Ordinals, get into Gamma and on these other great opportunities for artists. Great, super healthy community that is there as well. So definitely do not miss out. Do not let that opportunity go. We are early getting to it. With that said, we're rocking the space, and talk to you guys the next time pretty soon.